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	<title>Comments on: The Catch-22 recession: send in the clowns!</title>
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	<link>http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/economy/the-catch-22-recession-send-in-the-clowns/?utm_source=rss&amp;utm_medium=rss&amp;utm_campaign=the-catch-22-recession-send-in-the-clowns</link>
	<description>Views about the Australian stock market, shares, the economy, investing, politics and world events.</description>
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		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/economy/the-catch-22-recession-send-in-the-clowns/#comment-1009</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/?p=278#comment-1009</guid>
		<description>Yes I think it is a bit early to get excited about the Australian economy. A stronger Oz dollar plus a fall in exports might make the next lot of GDP numbers look pretty awful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes I think it is a bit early to get excited about the Australian economy. A stronger Oz dollar plus a fall in exports might make the next lot of GDP numbers look pretty awful.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Atkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/economy/the-catch-22-recession-send-in-the-clowns/#comment-952</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Atkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:56:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/?p=278#comment-952</guid>
		<description>Pete - I agree with you. Some of the comments in the media for example talk about China like they are some new country that has just appeared on the face of the earth. The Chinese have been doing business deals for centuries and have been dealing with trade issues a lot longer than the executives at BHP and RIO. 

Many years ago Australians were less arrogant but I think the commodities boom has made us feel we are more important than we actually are. We are just a nation of 20 million odd people...on a global scale that is nothing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete &#8211; I agree with you. Some of the comments in the media for example talk about China like they are some new country that has just appeared on the face of the earth. The Chinese have been doing business deals for centuries and have been dealing with trade issues a lot longer than the executives at BHP and RIO. </p>
<p>Many years ago Australians were less arrogant but I think the commodities boom has made us feel we are more important than we actually are. We are just a nation of 20 million odd people&#8230;on a global scale that is nothing.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete</title>
		<link>http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/economy/the-catch-22-recession-send-in-the-clowns/#comment-949</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:22:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/?p=278#comment-949</guid>
		<description>Greg:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Because manufacturing exports are not a major part of our economy. I am not sure this is something we should be happy about.

I recall how pleased Australia was to escape the dot.com/tech bubble. Yes it was good we dodged that bullet, but it was also a reflection of the fact that we do not have a significant tech sector. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;So maybe China and Japan will both look towards Russia more in the years ahead? Seems logical, Russia is a lot closer than Australia.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Ned:
&lt;blockquote&gt;I guess one could venture the opinion that Australia doesn’t have an especially well balanced economy.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Good points! I like your link Ned.

I know I come across as overly pessimistic (i&#039;m a cynic), but I really do think it is unwise for Australians to make any assumptions on a return to 2008 resources boom. There are so many things that could derail that completely.

And whilst I don&#039;t have anything against the sector, it is really the &#039;all eggs in one basket&#039; approach that I am against. Our stupid Gov. and lot of Australian investors seem to have their eggs quite neatly stacked in the iron ore basket.

As for investing, the approach I am taking is the anti-base minerals approach. See the way I figure it is if the resources boom does (miraculously?) return, then money will be forthcoming anyway. If it doesn&#039;t, then hopefully I will do okay out of it. So it is a bit of a half-win/win strategy for quality of life (in my opinion).

Besides, China doesn&#039;t like us much now (surprise,surprise - screw them over enough times and they don&#039;t like us?)

&lt;em&gt;Beijing backlash against Rio deal&lt;/em&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://business.smh.com.au/business/beijing-backlash-against-rio-deal-20090611-c4xv.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://business.smh.com.au/business/beijing-backlash-against-rio-deal-20090611-c4xv.html&lt;/a&gt;

Sometimes I think we are just a small, immature country playing silly games with the big boys. With a little bit of effort I think China could sink us into one of the nastiest recession/depressions we could ever imagine (by removing credit facilities, majorly reducing trade).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg:</p>
<blockquote><p>Because manufacturing exports are not a major part of our economy. I am not sure this is something we should be happy about.</p>
<p>I recall how pleased Australia was to escape the dot.com/tech bubble. Yes it was good we dodged that bullet, but it was also a reflection of the fact that we do not have a significant tech sector. </p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>So maybe China and Japan will both look towards Russia more in the years ahead? Seems logical, Russia is a lot closer than Australia.</p></blockquote>
<p>Ned:</p>
<blockquote><p>I guess one could venture the opinion that Australia doesn’t have an especially well balanced economy.</p></blockquote>
<p>Good points! I like your link Ned.</p>
<p>I know I come across as overly pessimistic (i&#8217;m a cynic), but I really do think it is unwise for Australians to make any assumptions on a return to 2008 resources boom. There are so many things that could derail that completely.</p>
<p>And whilst I don&#8217;t have anything against the sector, it is really the &#8216;all eggs in one basket&#8217; approach that I am against. Our stupid Gov. and lot of Australian investors seem to have their eggs quite neatly stacked in the iron ore basket.</p>
<p>As for investing, the approach I am taking is the anti-base minerals approach. See the way I figure it is if the resources boom does (miraculously?) return, then money will be forthcoming anyway. If it doesn&#8217;t, then hopefully I will do okay out of it. So it is a bit of a half-win/win strategy for quality of life (in my opinion).</p>
<p>Besides, China doesn&#8217;t like us much now (surprise,surprise &#8211; screw them over enough times and they don&#8217;t like us?)</p>
<p><em>Beijing backlash against Rio deal</em><br />
<a href="http://business.smh.com.au/business/beijing-backlash-against-rio-deal-20090611-c4xv.html" rel="nofollow">http://business.smh.com.au/business/beijing-backlash-against-rio-deal-20090611-c4xv.html</a></p>
<p>Sometimes I think we are just a small, immature country playing silly games with the big boys. With a little bit of effort I think China could sink us into one of the nastiest recession/depressions we could ever imagine (by removing credit facilities, majorly reducing trade).</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Atkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/economy/the-catch-22-recession-send-in-the-clowns/#comment-927</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Atkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 04:38:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/?p=278#comment-927</guid>
		<description>Ned I think Australia needs to remember we do not have a vice like grip on commodities. I was just reading an article a few days ago in a Japanese business paper about the strengthening ties between Japan and Russia. Seems Siberia has a lot of Uranium and the Japanese are keen to get their hands on it to fuel their nuclear power plants. Russia also has LNG and will ramp up supply to Japan and as you point out they have plenty of iron ore as well. (not to mention oil) 

So maybe China and Japan will both look towards Russia more in the years ahead? Seems logical, Russia is a lot closer than Australia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ned I think Australia needs to remember we do not have a vice like grip on commodities. I was just reading an article a few days ago in a Japanese business paper about the strengthening ties between Japan and Russia. Seems Siberia has a lot of Uranium and the Japanese are keen to get their hands on it to fuel their nuclear power plants. Russia also has LNG and will ramp up supply to Japan and as you point out they have plenty of iron ore as well. (not to mention oil) </p>
<p>So maybe China and Japan will both look towards Russia more in the years ahead? Seems logical, Russia is a lot closer than Australia.</p>
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		<title>By: Ned S</title>
		<link>http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/economy/the-catch-22-recession-send-in-the-clowns/#comment-926</link>
		<dc:creator>Ned S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 02:24:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/?p=278#comment-926</guid>
		<description>Put that way Greg, I guess one could venture the opinion that Australia doesn&#039;t have an especially well balanced economy. Would be interesting to see what happened if the world decided those alternative energy sources Mr Obama funded are working out nicely and hey, coal really is dirty stuff. Plus just maybe Russia got a bit more motivated regarding digging up its iron ore:

&quot;Russia is the fifth largest iron ore miner and accounts for about 6% of global production, though its reserves are unlimited because of the huge land mass.&quot;

Source: http://www.bulkmaterialsinternational.com/htm/w20080903.243705.htm

Oz begins to sound a bit like Ireland in a potato famine. I guess the pollies might describe the result as &quot;negative&quot; population growth? Could help make Oz housing affordable I guess - Smile!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Put that way Greg, I guess one could venture the opinion that Australia doesn&#8217;t have an especially well balanced economy. Would be interesting to see what happened if the world decided those alternative energy sources Mr Obama funded are working out nicely and hey, coal really is dirty stuff. Plus just maybe Russia got a bit more motivated regarding digging up its iron ore:</p>
<p>&#8220;Russia is the fifth largest iron ore miner and accounts for about 6% of global production, though its reserves are unlimited because of the huge land mass.&#8221;</p>
<p>Source: <a href="http://www.bulkmaterialsinternational.com/htm/w20080903.243705.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.bulkmaterialsinternational.com/htm/w20080903.243705.htm</a></p>
<p>Oz begins to sound a bit like Ireland in a potato famine. I guess the pollies might describe the result as &#8220;negative&#8221; population growth? Could help make Oz housing affordable I guess &#8211; Smile!</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Atkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/economy/the-catch-22-recession-send-in-the-clowns/#comment-925</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Atkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:26:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/?p=278#comment-925</guid>
		<description>Senator 13 - many people seem to be swayed by the comparison of our debt to other OECD nations and the fact that our exports have held up well. Our exports have held up well because we did not take a major hit because of a collapse in manufacturing exports..why? Because manufacturing exports are not a major part of our economy. I am not sure this is something we should be happy about. 

I recall how pleased Australia was to escape the dot.com/tech bubble. Yes it was good we dodged that bullet, but it was also a reflection of the fact that we do not have a significant tech sector. 

I am pleased of course that our soft and hard commodities exports helped the economy but imagine what will happens if these are soft over a long period...how are we going to earn the money to pay down debt? Are we relying on commodities always being able to prop up the economy?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Senator 13 &#8211; many people seem to be swayed by the comparison of our debt to other OECD nations and the fact that our exports have held up well. Our exports have held up well because we did not take a major hit because of a collapse in manufacturing exports..why? Because manufacturing exports are not a major part of our economy. I am not sure this is something we should be happy about. </p>
<p>I recall how pleased Australia was to escape the dot.com/tech bubble. Yes it was good we dodged that bullet, but it was also a reflection of the fact that we do not have a significant tech sector. </p>
<p>I am pleased of course that our soft and hard commodities exports helped the economy but imagine what will happens if these are soft over a long period&#8230;how are we going to earn the money to pay down debt? Are we relying on commodities always being able to prop up the economy?</p>
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		<title>By: Senator13</title>
		<link>http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/economy/the-catch-22-recession-send-in-the-clowns/#comment-918</link>
		<dc:creator>Senator13</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 12:07:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/?p=278#comment-918</guid>
		<description>The GDP figures are going to be extremely interesting.  

Great point Greg – I hate how the Government keeps running the “our debt is smaller then theirs” line.  What the hell is the point of that?  Our debt is MASSIVE and as Pete said, the scenario to recovery is a fairytale as it stands. 

We might be heading towards 10% unemployment, but hay, Kev says we avoided “technical recession” so everything is OK now, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The GDP figures are going to be extremely interesting.  </p>
<p>Great point Greg – I hate how the Government keeps running the “our debt is smaller then theirs” line.  What the hell is the point of that?  Our debt is MASSIVE and as Pete said, the scenario to recovery is a fairytale as it stands. </p>
<p>We might be heading towards 10% unemployment, but hay, Kev says we avoided “technical recession” so everything is OK now, right?</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Atkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/economy/the-catch-22-recession-send-in-the-clowns/#comment-917</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Atkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 11:50:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/?p=278#comment-917</guid>
		<description>Pete I agree with you. What is also important is the ability to pay back the debt. It is no use saying Australia has low debt compared to other G20 nations, what we should focus on is our ability to service that debt. It seems we are betting on the commodities boom coming back...but what is Plan B?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete I agree with you. What is also important is the ability to pay back the debt. It is no use saying Australia has low debt compared to other G20 nations, what we should focus on is our ability to service that debt. It seems we are betting on the commodities boom coming back&#8230;but what is Plan B?</p>
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		<title>By: Pete</title>
		<link>http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/economy/the-catch-22-recession-send-in-the-clowns/#comment-912</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 08:04:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/?p=278#comment-912</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m interested in the GDP figures too.

Especially since the Gov. is constantly using it as a measuring stick when saying how much debt it will take on.

If the measuring stick changes...the values can change dramatically.

Eg: If our GDP went from ~1.2T to 900B, would 300B of debt still be the same proportion? Not even close. Without increasing the debt, the proportion would change from 25% to 33%. If you increase debt and lose GDP at the same time, then the change is naturally even more dramatic.

The Gov. should definitely not be boasting about saving the economy yet. This will come back to haunt them in election time, or at the election after that. Think of the smear campaigns they could run on TV. Ouch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m interested in the GDP figures too.</p>
<p>Especially since the Gov. is constantly using it as a measuring stick when saying how much debt it will take on.</p>
<p>If the measuring stick changes&#8230;the values can change dramatically.</p>
<p>Eg: If our GDP went from ~1.2T to 900B, would 300B of debt still be the same proportion? Not even close. Without increasing the debt, the proportion would change from 25% to 33%. If you increase debt and lose GDP at the same time, then the change is naturally even more dramatic.</p>
<p>The Gov. should definitely not be boasting about saving the economy yet. This will come back to haunt them in election time, or at the election after that. Think of the smear campaigns they could run on TV. Ouch.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Atkinson</title>
		<link>http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/economy/the-catch-22-recession-send-in-the-clowns/#comment-909</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Atkinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 00:48:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/?p=278#comment-909</guid>
		<description>The question is how will the Q2 GDP numbers look? We are yet to feel the full impact from falling commodities prices and a slump in demand. Perhaps the Government should not be boasting about saving the economy just yet? Perhaps if the RBA did not raise rates so far in the first place we would have ended up with the same result without needing to throw around billions of tax payers money via cash handouts? 

Isn&#039;t it a bit strange that money was taken out of the economy via higher interest rates in early-mid 2008 and then to counter the slowdown the government had to pump money back into the economy? Seems to me that so far we are down billions simply because the Government and RBA messed up in 2008.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The question is how will the Q2 GDP numbers look? We are yet to feel the full impact from falling commodities prices and a slump in demand. Perhaps the Government should not be boasting about saving the economy just yet? Perhaps if the RBA did not raise rates so far in the first place we would have ended up with the same result without needing to throw around billions of tax payers money via cash handouts? </p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t it a bit strange that money was taken out of the economy via higher interest rates in early-mid 2008 and then to counter the slowdown the government had to pump money back into the economy? Seems to me that so far we are down billions simply because the Government and RBA messed up in 2008.</p>
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		<title>By: Senator13</title>
		<link>http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/economy/the-catch-22-recession-send-in-the-clowns/#comment-902</link>
		<dc:creator>Senator13</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 12:12:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.shareswatch.com.au/blog/?p=278#comment-902</guid>
		<description>Holding a press conference for avoiding a “technical recession”…  What next?  I think we have only seen the tip of the ice burg - there is paying back all that debt still to come.  Wonder if they will be holding press conferences when the cash splash party mentality has warn off and we are left with the hangover?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Holding a press conference for avoiding a “technical recession”…  What next?  I think we have only seen the tip of the ice burg &#8211; there is paying back all that debt still to come.  Wonder if they will be holding press conferences when the cash splash party mentality has warn off and we are left with the hangover?</p>
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